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2004-12-23 [Dint]: In the book of Tobit, 12:12 the angel Raphael is revealing himself to Tobit and he says, “I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead.” Verse 15—“I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who enter and serve before the glory of the Lord.”
2004-12-23 [Dint]: In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-30), the departed rich man is able to pray to Abraham and intercede for his brothers. This implies that there can be communication between Heaven and Earth. And that fraternal charity extends beyond the grave. There are more quotations, but I advise that you look up Revelations 8:3. Hope that was helpful RaineDrop.
2004-12-23 [RabidSphinx]: what is the book of Tobit? that isn't in the bible...? and no, none of that was really all that helpful. Your verses to "prove" Jesus is God are bogus if you want to count all the ones he denyed being God...what of them? why, if he and God are the same, whould he say repeatedly that he *wasn't* god? Why would he say he's gods son, why would he say he would go to heaven to join his FATHER, why would he say he would sit at his FATHER'S righthand?and for the Saints, you guys make *anyone* into a saint...Jone of Arc was made into a Saint 500 years after you burned her at the stake as a Witch...you declare Saints they take back their Sainthood...wh
2004-12-23 [RabidSphinx]: ooohhh....Tobi
2004-12-23 [RabidSphinx]: susspended state until judgment day...then you will be judged and declared faithful or not. the not are set to death, no hell, and the ricious go to the heavenly earth. the bible says the dead are dead, concious of nothing, it's the cathoilic church that added all that hell stuff to basically scare people into paying a tyth(spelling?)...and the "I AM" quote...God said "I AM" to moses because God is the grand creater and he is what he needs to be, therefore all he could answer to that was "i am what i am"
2004-12-23 [Mr. Werewolf]: RaineDrop, that is wrong. Tobit was an Israelite living around 700 B.C. and the book was written largely about him. It was written in Arimaic and Hebrew, was lost for centuries, and then discovered in 1955 in a cave in Qumran.
2004-12-23 [RabidSphinx]: and it has largly been thought to be fake...so? the catholic church is the only one that acknowledges it...
2004-12-23 [Lioness123]: Rainedrop, keep your cool in here please. We will answer all your questions, but lets please do them ONE at a time so we can thoroughly get the answer across.
2004-12-24 [RabidSphinx]: i'm cool...you would know if i weren't...if anything i'm just amused...(^_+)
2004-12-24 [Lioness123]: ok
2004-12-24 [Mr. Werewolf]: In case I don't talk to you all before then, Merry Christmas!
2004-12-24 [RabidSphinx]: and a happy newyear
2004-12-24 [Dint]: Merry Christmas everybody! ^___^ I hope you all have a wonderful and blessed time! *huzzah!*
2004-12-25 [Lioness123]: God bless us, everyone! lol, Merry "Christ"mas!!
2004-12-26 [Dint]: That's right Lioness! Keep Christ in Christmas! ^o^
2005-01-07 [Tesa]: Oh thank you so much [Lioness123] for making this wiki!! I am so glad we Roman Catholics finally have a place to sleep!^__^
2005-01-07 [Lioness123]: :D
2005-01-09 [Bad Stone]: Hey, question, I grew up in epscipal (erm...spelling help?) church we have the same EXACT creed (just realized that) even the line "We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church." I just realized that...so how is our church not catholic? and why DIDN'T we change that...we are as close to catholic you can get without being catholic...but I think I'm asking the wrong side but whatever...and I'm not a christian or a catholic but I know the creed and a billion other things by heart...and now I'm really wondering about that *sigh*
2005-01-09 [RabidSphinx]: it's the same creed the Luthrans use too..."we balieve in the holy catholic and apostolic church" meaning we do not deny them, we believe mostly the same as them, and that we branched off from them, but dissagree with how the catholic church runs things for their own benifit...Mart
2005-01-09 [Bad Stone]: that was the old catholic church, his 95 thesis were mostly against the selling of...oh damn what are they called? that were supposed to forgive your sins.
2005-01-09 [RabidSphinx]: that and other things, (i can't think of what those pardons are called either) but he didn't like how alot of things were run, like the tything (sp?) and all that...he saw the catholic church as corrupt, as do i, so broke away...he still has the same basic teachings, only he started from scratch from the bible and dropped most of the custums the Catholic church had added over the years that had no bible base...but the nicene creed was kept because he wasn't *rejecting* the church, just it's teachings,
2005-01-10 [Mr. Werewolf]: The definition of catholic is "universal" so every church is catholic because every church is universal...we are Roman Catholics because we are a universal church centered in Rome.
2005-01-10 [Bad Stone]: INDULGENCES! thats what it was!
2005-01-10 [Lioness123]: in the time of Luther, the people who ran the church were corrupt, NOT the church itself. What happened was, the priests of the tme were CHARGING people money to have their sins forgiven at confesstion which is so wrong I don't know where to begin. I believe Luther had the right intentions, but should not have broken away from the church. Jesus DIED to start the Roman catholic church, how could he thing that he could make a religion that was any better than Jesus Christ himself created? Thank God times have changed (for the most part) and evil corrupt men do not run the church.
2005-01-10 [Lioness123]: check out the pope's pimpin ride! 
2005-01-10 [Dint]: Well said Lioness! But what busts my chops is when something bad happens in the Catholic church, the media makes it seem that every Catholic priest who ever lived is a child molesting monster. Every religion has those corrupt persons which ruin everything for the rest of the people who are striving to do good and follow what they believe. (Am I making any sense out of myself? holy crap, I'm tired...) -__- The Pope certainly does have a sweet ride at any rate! XD
2005-01-10 [Lioness123]: all that child molestation thats been going on in the church needs to be CLEARLY explained to the public that the Roman Catholic church does not by any means teach this, and that it is very much against everything we stand for. The people who committed those crimes are NOT reflecting the church or how they were taught to be, they are acting out of their own sick, selfishness and have betrayed the church and their parishioneers (sp).
2005-01-10 [Dint]: To be sure, Lioness! To be sure. I just wish that some people would see that! I get so frustrated, if you understand me. Everyone has a free will...their choice whether they act on those thoughts (or whatever drives them to do such terrible things) or not. ><
2005-01-10 [RabidSphinx]: the roman catholic church, along with most religions, have stryed from the teachings of the bible over the years so that what jesus died for, our *sins* not to make a chuch, aren't even being honered properly...tha
2005-01-10 [Lioness123]: rainedrop, I'll only warn you once. Watch your mouth and what you say here in this wiki. Remember if you are not a member, you are a guest here. To adress your issues with the pope, we catholics DO NOT worship the pope!! He is a religious leader and as close to God that one can be while still being a mortal man here on earth.
2005-01-10 [RabidSphinx]: or, he was just apointed and is just like the rest of us, conning the people out of their money in their hopes of getting to heaven
2005-01-10 [Mr. Werewolf]: RaineDrop, why are you coming here to argue with us? I'm sure that's not why this wiki was created, and I know it isn't welcome. I can't believe you'd make a comment like that without intending to offend us. The Pope is to us the most holy person on Earth! If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.
2005-01-10 [RabidSphinx]: fine...i will not comment on how messed up the church is, and how ridicules the pope is...since you made this wiki, i have to respect your, um, stuff...hahaha
2005-01-11 [Mr. Werewolf]: I'm glad we reached a compromise! As for "corrupt religion" I don't think I agree with that...it is private individuals who can become corrupt while pretending to represent the Church and God's will (such as indulgences, which I believe are no longer in practice). Some other events like the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades were put into effect in ways that were more political that religious. In that way, some people were more concerned with acquiring wealth and power. But I believe Jesus did declare Peter to be the greatest of the Apostles...I'm not sure if he gave him complete leadership but I know that he became the first Pope.
2005-01-11 [Mr. Werewolf]: That's an awesome car! Thanks for sharing Lioness123! :D
2005-01-11 [Mr. Werewolf]: I found this news article...I felt it worth sharing: http://story.n
2005-01-11 [RabidSphinx]: i want a car like that...but only so i can flash people as i'm driven around...i'm pretty sure the pope doesn't do that...(>_<) and Peter was named the greatest, but not a pope, just a leader, what is good about other religions, luthrin for example, is church positions are not life-long, so no one indavidual can get too much power....we reelect bishops every, like, 4 years or so, our last bishop locally weas a woman i believe...not sure though...but the pope has become more powerful, and he is *just* a man...not even like Peter because Jesus *knew* Peter...the Pope is only, like, what 180 years old? lol...
2005-01-11 [Mr. Werewolf]: Hmm, I understand what you mean but I wouldn't say that the Pope ends up with more power. He does have a great responsibility as leaderof such a large congregation of people. I would not say that the current Pope is corrupt at all. He is truly sincere in his speaking, and on top of that he's canonized more saints than any other Pope. Also, he continues to stand against stem-cell research even though he has Parkinson's Disease. I think he's a great man.
2005-01-11 [RabidSphinx]: i believe in stem-cell...no
2005-01-11 [RabidSphinx]: 
hehehe...i couldn't resist...(^_^)
2005-01-11 [Bad Stone]: hehehe...thats awesome Raine...and anyways, i'm not going to get into a long arguement or anything cause I was just wondering something...an
2005-01-11 [RabidSphinx]: well, what is the question? you didn't actually ask one...(>.<) just that you didbd't want to start an argument, and that you were just curious...lol
2005-01-11 [Bad Stone]: no I was wondering why the creed at my old chruch was word for word the same, even the "we believe in one holy CATHOLIC and -I can say the word, forgetting spelling it- church"
2005-01-11 [RabidSphinx]: oh...okay, yeah, it's because the branches didn't reject the church, just how they ran things...that'
2005-01-11 [Tesa]: Oh my gosh RaineDrop! The Pope is the leader of the church! He also a very humble man and works through Christ. And, I know some one prolly already said this but, as Catholics we don't believe is Solo Scriptura. Meaning that we do not go by the Bible Alone. Yes it the written word of God, but it is the WRITTEN. We also believe in and learn from Apostolic Tradition. Or the big T for you big T and little T peoples.
2005-01-11 [Tesa]: Any ways, if you want to under stand us, ask us. Don't make arguement so fast that we can barely keep up. Ask and we can help you to understand what being a Catholic really is. As for StemStell reasearch. I think taking the body of a dead baby for other peoples disabilities is wrong. It's like killing your own sister so you can have her heart because yours is bad. No way! So not good! StemStell is just like Abortion. That's a human being....
2005-01-11 [Dint]: That's right, we also learn and abide by Tradition that's been passed down for thousands of years. Well said [Tesa]!
2005-01-11 [Tesa]: *cough* Also, I have one thing to state...or say. I know quite a few converts and ah, they don't take this all in and believe it all the next day. They go to classes and do research and most of all pray about it. Praying before the Blessed Sacrament is the most powerful thing, other then receiving our Lord in Holy Communion, in the world! Maybe every thing you hear and see RaineDrop is just so very different from what you have been taught and learned on your own. And I can so understand that, but don't rush into things. As a great Saint once said, "I once walked blindly into my faith, no more. Unveil my eyes oh Lord so that I may know you." *tear* So wonderful!
2005-01-11 [Lioness123]: ok, I missed alot while I was at work. One thing I wanna make clear is that Jesus DID appoint peter as the first pope and leader of the church. "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Matthew 16:19 RSV)
2005-01-11 [Tesa]: Oh boy, on roll, here I go again. On the matter of Jesus only coming to save us from our sins and not make a church, that's quite wrong. Remember Simon, named Peter? Well, Jesus named Simon, Peter because Peter means "rock". And Jesus told Peter, "On this rock will I build my church." And so he did. Peter was the first Pope. Why? Because Jesus appointed him to it. To be the leader of the church. They just came up for a name for it, what the pope IS and what Peter WAS is the same. The leader of our Holy Church. Also, why would God, send his only Son, to die for us and then leave with out any further instruction? He HAD to make a church with his teachings so that we might pick up our Cross,
2005-01-11 [Lioness123]: The apostle Peter was originally named Simon. Jesus changed his name with a word play on the term for rock: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church” (Mt 16:18; see also Jn 1:42). In the Bible a name change always indicates a special destiny, and after this incident we find that Peter does have a unique role. At Pentecost, for example, who but Peter speaks for all the apostles? Peter is imperfect, as are all the apostles, and Jesus certainly knows about this. In fact, he even predicts that Peter will deny him. At the same time, Jesus promises his special help. “I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail;” he tells Peter, “and when you have turned again, strengthen your
2005-01-11 [Tesa]: under stand why we were made and to follow him in his church. The church HE set down for us. So, now that that is out of my system, I feel better. My Holy Catholic faith is more important to me then any thing. As another great Saint said. "To Be is to Act, to Act is to Defend." Meaning, to be a Roman Catholic you must act on it, Live and receive the Sacraments, and then to Defend what you would surely die for.
2005-01-11 [Lioness123]: brethren” (Lk 22:32). This is Peter’s role. Strengthened by Jesus, he strengthens the other apostles and helps maintain their unity. He serves us all by using his authority to bring us to the kingdom. As one of his titles puts it, the pope is truly “the servant of the servants of God.”
2005-01-11 [Tesa]: OH gosh! Hi Lioness! I was on such a roll I didn't see you...many pardons....*re
2005-01-11 [Lioness123]: lol, no worries :)
2005-01-11 [Tesa]: Thanks...whew.
2005-01-11 [Lioness123]: I just hate how I miss so much when I'm away at work, then I find that I wasn't here to stand up for alot of important issues!
2005-01-11 [Dint]: Oh I'm so happy you two explained all that! I can never think of the right words to explain anything! *hugs Lioness and Teri*
2005-01-11 [Lioness123]: *hugs entire room* ^^
2005-01-11 [Lioness123]: dint, if you don't know how to defend something, do what i do and look it up! :p
2005-01-11 [Tesa]: Thanks for the hugs all!! *hugs for all!*
2005-01-11 [Dint]: I have Aologetic books all over my desk, but I can never look things up fast enough. XD This is good practice for me though! ^^
2005-01-11 [Tesa]: I have Bible Thumpers and Apologetics in my Ma's library...what a help! And flash cards! =D 'The Friendly Defenders.'
2005-01-11 [RabidSphinx]: well, i believe in following the bible, not man, so i guess we just can't agree...you take things said in the bible and twist them to fit your argument....ou
2005-01-11 [RabidSphinx]: stage, meaning they are a cluster of 8 cells...a few of the zygotes are implanted in the mother, the left over ones are treated as bi-hazard waste and distryed....no
2005-01-11 [Lioness123]: I think this is where things start to get sticky...peopl
2005-01-11 [Tesa]: No RaineDrop, I do not believe in in-vetro. But I do belive in Natural Family Planning. And if still the couple can not become pregant, a horrible sad thing, then really we can't do any thing about it. Like Lioness said, we can't play God.
2005-01-11 [RabidSphinx]: god has nothing to do with it...he has no direct hand in our lives...he said so in the bible...that he would not directly interfer with us humans until the end when he would come and end things....all we are doing is playing around with our own reproduction..
2005-01-11 [Bad Stone]: HOW DARE YOU SAY IF A WOMAN CANT GET PREGNANT SHE CANT HAVE A CHILD!?!?!? That is SO not cool, if the woman wants to have a child of her own for God's sake let her have one, even my own Priest had that done! His wife had twins through that very process, and we are practically Catholic ourselves, but that is not the wrong thing to do.
2005-01-11 [Tesa]: Holy moly! We were meant to be created in the womb! That is how God started it, that's how I believe it should be carried on. Science can go awfully far, it can be wonderful, but in some places it just makes me sick. No it SO not cool if a woman can not get pregnant! What do you think I am?? I AM a woman after all! But I don't believe in it. And I wouldn't say practically Catholic. There are so many differences it's hard to say we can be so close....sorry to have started such a hot fight! Every one else is saying what they believe in, why can't I?
2005-01-11 [Tesa]: Also, RaineDrop, God is always with us. He will always help us. Every one looks to God as some one far away. He is, in some terms, but he is RIGHT HERE beside us, wanting us to make the right choices and to fallow in his ways! WHY wouldn't he be with us? We are his children, the ones he sent his only son to die for! If I went through all that, I'd certainly keep close by those people, (give them good guardian angels) and help them! I know he is close to us, even now....
2005-01-11 [Bad Stone]: Have you ever been to my church teri? Or any episcipal (how do you spell it...there is an 'o' somewhere) church? Its almost exactly the same, we even pray to the 'saints' (when in fact, everone born again IS a saint...so, I find it pointless), we have icons, incense, communion ever sunday, priests wear elborate robes, the bishop is held in the highest esteem after the pope...I could go on forever...
2005-01-12 [RabidSphinx]: *agrees with eldheler* but no, [Tesa] i never said god was *with* us, but you have to understand the deal he made with Satan...he is testing man (basically) the devil said, if left to our own devices, we *wouldn't* follow god, god disagreed and said, no, there will always be some faithful to me. so they decided to see who would be right, and they made the agreement that neither could *directly* effect anything having to do with us, only INFLUENCE us...God influences us with our conciounce, and what not, and you see satan's influance *all* around...but neither can directly do *anything*....
2005-01-12 [RabidSphinx]: the body if need be...and before it is ever a fetus, or even an embrio, befefore the *law* but not me, sees them as even *alive* they are implanted. from 8 cells on, that baby develops and is born from it's mother's womb...there is nothing done to the zygote other than created and implanted...an
2005-01-12 [Mr. Werewolf]: I agree with Teri. I believe that if someone can't have children, then they should adopt. Perhaps that is God's intention for them. There are so many orphans in the world, not to mention children from families in third world countries that had to give them up because their family was too large to support itself. I know at least one couple in my parish who adopted one such child. So, while there are countless children around the world living in orphanages in need of a loving family environment, there are couples who, rather than providing that home, want to have their "own" children. I think that's just plain sadistic.
2005-01-12 [RabidSphinx]: you have any *idea* how it feels to mother a child? the sensations of being pregnant, of knowing you have a tiny child in you, to give birth, go through the pain, only to have such a reward? it has a LOT to do with human psycology...a woman can adopt hundrads of children, and never feel the maternal satisfaction of baring one herself...reme
2005-01-12 [RabidSphinx]: i know Loyid, Sam, and Syed are all boys that were adopted from persia, and koria...but they also have brothers and sisters in their adopted families born of their adopted parants...i know Sam in my art class was adopted, and a year later, his parents had an in-vetro baby, and they love him *and* their daughter...the
2005-01-12 [Mr. Werewolf]: And do you have any idea how terrible it is to be born into poverty? I have seen it in the flesh. When I went to South America I saw people who lived in canvas tents and shanties right off the highway. There are SO MANY suffering children everywhere in the world. In China, Russia, Africa...the list goes on and on. There will always be more orphans than could be given proper homes, so it should always be the leading alternative to true, traditional childbirth. I think that having no parents or loving family to care for you has a much more profound impact than not having your own child.
2005-01-12 [Bad Stone]: I knew an orphan, I'm trying to get back in contact with him...it's really hard to try to find the guy...and my aunt (well, shes actually my 3rd cousin but we call her aunt and see her as often as any aunt) adopted 2 Russian orphans, but that isnt for everyone. I want to bare my own child, and probably will, my friend Rachel finds a calling to adopt kids like my aunt, its not a sin for me to wish to bare my own children, its how animals/humans work if we didnt want children we would be all gone...God gave us that want for a REASON yet he gives others ready for the challenge of taking in another as well, but I can deffiantly say that isnt for everyone.
2005-01-12 [RabidSphinx]: in this country, it's easier to have you *own* child than someone elses...the child, if from another country, is often segragated by their classmates, because they are different...ch
2005-01-12 [RabidSphinx]: hard earned money is going to bumbs and people who refuse to work...for every person that *needs* social benifits, there are 7 that are playing the system...those children are unfortunit to have been born in such living conditions in those countries, but i can't help them other than send money towards forign aid...but 10 cents of every dollar is a rip off if you ask me...
2005-01-12 [Lioness123]: wow rainedrop, you really have things tough (not trying to sound sarcastic)...Do you know anyone who's been on welfare? MANY of them are ashamed that they have to resort to such means.
2005-01-12 [RabidSphinx]: i know some that are on it and are ashaimed, and i know MANY that abuse it...and if you ask me, i would rather deny it to a few to prevent hundreds from abusing it...that's the same i feel about abortion, i would rather it be illegal so that even rape victims can't get it, so that the general public can't abuse it as birthcontrol..
2005-01-12 [Lioness123]: I believe that people need to look out for each other. "Do unto others", as a very famous and well loved man once said
2005-01-12 [Tesa]: RaineDrop, that really pushed me to the limit! You have no idea how badly people do need welfare! My dad left my mom, she had no money no NOTHING! We HAVE bills up the to the freeking sun, we had to go on food stamps and the like to get by for a single month. We don't have any thing but we had from before. If we needed new shoes or ANY THING LIKE THAT we had to ask for it for Christmas from our family. We have nothing and thanks to welfare we can get food now and be able to EAT! Yes, there are people who horrible abuse it, but for who need it so baddly, it's a great blessing! And we do feel bad to be on it, but if we weren't, we'd have to move and leave every thing behind....
2005-01-12 [RabidSphinx]: you want some chese with that whine? because i just cried a river about the SAME damn thing in Anti-suicide about my life...you know what? life sucks, then we die...that is why people cling to god...because he promisis something better after death....
2005-01-12 [Tesa]: Right, that's why we must work so hard to be good in this life so we can greet God and be able to say, "I tried my best," We must work to get to Heaven, it's better then any pleasure on earth...
2005-01-12 [RabidSphinx]: i don't believe in heaven, or hell, so this life is all i got...but that's cool, being a good person still means a lot to me
2005-01-12 [Tesa]: Well, that's good to know. I believe in heaven, hell and purgotory. But, that's because I do. And I really don't want to argue about it....I believe and I can't really explain it because my brain is fried.
2005-01-12 [RabidSphinx]: i don't *want* to live forever *anywhere* one life is enough for me...i wouldn't want to be stuck in heaven or hell...heaven sounds boring, and hell just sounds like life now, which i want nothing more than to get away from
2005-01-12 [Tesa]: So true, hell would suck. But, you know, we don't really know what Heaven is, or looks like. I just want to be happy, and have every one else in the world be happy too...with God and me! lol...but that's just me.
2005-01-12 [RabidSphinx]: well, i was tought that we don't *all* go to heaven, only 144,000, the rest of us are reborn on a paridice earth to live forever as perfect men and women like god intended...and that to me sounds like hell...
2005-01-12 [Tesa]: wow....I have nevr ever heard of that, and I don't think I like it.
2005-01-12 [RabidSphinx]: it's stated in the bible, and in several reads....um... "he will come again to judje the living and the dead, and resurect them to a paridaice earth" or something...i can't remember off the top of my head, but it's good for those who want to go to heaven and what not...but *i* personally don't want to...
2005-01-12 [Tesa]: Uh huh. But I can't even begin to think of the joys of heaven. Every one will be happy, with there loved ones. Oh yes, I could do that. *misses her mom who is out of town*
2005-01-12 [Mr. Werewolf]: No, that part of the Book of Revelation already occurred. It was highly symbolic, signifying the end of the persecution by the Romans. That was also a symbolism. We are currently in the golden age after the Revelation, awaiting the Second Coming of Christ.
2005-01-12 [RabidSphinx]: *nods* that's what the resurection promisis,....t
2005-01-12 [Tesa]: Doesn't that sound beautiful....H
2005-01-12 [RabidSphinx]: it's "heaven on earth" that is god's promise to man...
2005-01-12 [Lioness123]: one can not even begin to fathom the joys ofi heaven or the horrible terrors that await in hell...just tempting us to sin so that they can have our souls to torture and add to satan's dark army against God. NOBODY, not even the pope can fathom that.
2005-01-12 [Tesa]: I agree with that Lioness, we can't begin to even think of it. Good point!!
2005-01-12 [RabidSphinx]: well, that is only if you believe in hell and heaven...
2005-01-12 [Mr. Werewolf]: Yes, and that's what this wiki was made for, just so you know.
2005-01-12 [RabidSphinx]: well, it's only the catholics that teach of such things like Hell, so i guess you would all believe such a place existed... hahaha...
2005-01-13 [Mr. Werewolf]: Yeah lol, we do believe in it...but we're not the only ones who do!
2005-01-13 [RabidSphinx]: yeah yeah...sure sure...i'm not going to hell...or heaven...death is death...that is what god said...he said that if adam and/or eve ate from the tree they would *certainly* die...he never said they would die and go to hell.....we are dead as dead until judgement when we will ALL be judged at once...not right when we die...then the wikid will be sent back into the blackness of death, and the good will live on the heavanly earth...
2005-01-13 [Tesa]: Well actually, I don't think there was a hell in Adams time because when Adam and Eve sinned they closed they closed gates of heaven. SO! They went to a place called Shaoel. (spelling?) And then when Jesus died it states in our Creed that, "He desended into hell," THUS he WENT to Shaoel, retrieved the good souls and brought them to heaven, since now the gates were open. And yes, we Catholic believe in that.
2005-01-13 [RabidSphinx]: silly catholics...
2005-01-13 [Bad Stone]: it doesnt say in the creed he decsended into hell, I've only heard that at presbitarian churchs, all ours, and the one you posted say is "he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again..." unless you have the extra line, which honestly slightly offends me, and it is never said in the bible he went to hell. But much like Raine I dont believe in heaven, hell and much less purgatory. No where in the scriptures in purgatory talked about as I plave you work to get into heaven, there is no way to get into OTHER then Christ, and there is nothing MORE then Christ that you need.
2005-01-13 [RabidSphinx]: the cathoilics are the onlyones that teach about purgatory, and hell, because they added such lines to creeds...you are right, hellis never mentioned in the bible...it was used as a scare tacktic of the church to get people to be good
2005-01-13 [Bad Stone]: I dont believe in heaven hell or purgatory, but I'm also not a christian, but within the bible sense, if I was a christian I would never believe in purgatory, purgatory was made up in middle ages...to help sell indulgences, it totally defeats the purpose of being a christian, you cant work your way into heaven . period. Thats what protestants believe...
2005-01-13 [RabidSphinx]: *nods* the sell of indulgences has basically stopped now, but the fact still remains that the church uses hevan and hell as ways to get you to be *good* when there is no bible truths to back it up....
2005-01-13 [Mr. Werewolf]: Stop complaining. If you don't like us, why don't you both just leave then?
2005-01-13 [Mr. Werewolf]: If you want a religious debate, I suggest you start a topic in ~Philosophy.
2005-01-13 [RabidSphinx]: because i'm here...defend your religion, don't tell me to leave...that's just like admitting weren't right...
2005-01-13 [Mr. Werewolf]: No, maybe we just don't want to defend our religion, maybe we're tired of being annoyed, and maybe we want to put this wiki to a better use. People shouldn't have to be put on the defensive by their guests. Why can't you understand that?
2005-01-13 [RabidSphinx]: because you made a wiki for the public...i made a pro-life wiki, those are my beliefs...that doesn't mean no pro-abortionis
2005-01-13 [Bad Stone]: I'm wondering where on earth you got the idea of purgatory, its not talked about in that sense at all, and what else are you going to use this wiki for? wiki's like this are only put to use when someone comes and asks questions...ca
2005-01-13 [RabidSphinx]: hehehe...i got that complaint in my pro-life wiki that we were all just sitting around, agreeing with eachother about abortion being wrong, and a member complained that it was boreing and i asked her what else we should talk about, the weather? hahaha!
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: I think maybe what [Mr. Werewolf] was getting at, is that we Roman Catholics would just like a place where we can dicuss matters umung our selves, and chat about the great joys we know we have being a Catholic, and being united with Rome. And I agree with him, I wish we had a little break defending, but, I won't back off. Not ever. I'll defend till the very end!
2005-01-14 [Bad Stone]: I'm not attacking, snd still no one has answered my question *sigh*
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: Well, to sort of anwer your question, it was brought up by many, MANY Saints who saw Mary and Our Lord, of it. The children of Fatima saw Purgatory. So yeah, sorry if that doesn't help. I am to tired to buzz my brain...
2005-01-14 [Mr. Werewolf]: You know what? We should create a visitor's section for discussion about our religion. It'll make everything more organized, so we can talk to visitors who have their own questions as well as having our own discussions. And of course, there is already the Quesions & Answers section above to check out :D
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: Good idea [Mr. Werewolf]!! I think it would work!=)
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: oh, so a bunch a saits bullshitted that all up...why don't any of you follow the bible?
2005-01-14 [Mr. Werewolf]: What I believe, is that you aren't fit for entering Heaven immediately after you die. You have to cleanse yourself of the evils of the world. You cannot escape from them...the world is fallen and full of hidden evils that we perform out of ignorance and habit. So basically, it can be a place where you prepare your soul for entering such a perfect and pure place such as Heaven is, where there's no evil. I'm not sure if that's true; that's just what I have always seen it as. To tell you the truth, I haven't looked into it that much. I'll have to crack open my books and start reading ^_^
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: wtf? purgitory is where you go if you are a decent perosn, who died without confessing their last sins...you are not bad enough to go to hell, but can't get into heaven with the sins...that is what they claim purgitory is...damn...i know what and i'm not even catholic...
2005-01-14 [Mr. Werewolf]: You just contradicted yourself RaineDrop. Most of the stuff in the Bible was revealed to people through visions. Just because it's not written down in the Bible doesn't mean that it's not true. God still speaks to people and reveals pieces of truth to them.
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: no he doesn't...he stopped talking to people thhousands of years ago...all with that "no direct contact" we have god's word in the bible, and that is what you should follow...and PCP adict can claim god talked to god...
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: Ah HA! I finally found the scripture passage I was looking for to defend that!! Ahem... "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obery everything that I have commended you." And then, oh baby, it gets better! "And remeber, I am with you ALWAYS till the end of time." Matthew 28:18-20
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: Always, he can still, and STILL DOES speak to us, just not the way we think TALK. He comes to us through inspirations, other people, apiritions(sp). All that stuff.
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: He come's to me most in Adoration and though our holy Priests, and my Mum. And of course the Dominican sister's I write too. I can see God in them all, but I know he still speaks to us, because if he didn't, we wouldn't be here. =D....Why let his only son die for nothing. Like knitting a blanket and then throwing it all away! All the work, the hours, and then, watching it burn. It was for nothing.....Bu
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: actually...wha
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: There you go! he doesn't NEED to talk to us! As long as we have him by our side and hear his whispers, his guidance, we'll be GREAT!.......W
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: he doesn't SPEAK to us! even the men that wrote the fucking bible didn't talk to him! they were given gods word through ANGELS! dear lord have you even READ the bible? he doesn't "whisper" to us...he doesn't do any of that...and even when we pray, our prayers don't go to him, they have to go through jeasus because we are not considered *wrothy* enough to talk to god directly...
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: But Jesus IS God, so, well I can't explain that either, I don't have the smarts. But, any ways. *sigh* I am a Catholic; I believe in that.... I leave it at that. And, I HAVE read the Bible. And it's the ****** Bible, RaineDrop, if it's any thing, it's the Holy Bible. If your going to swear, swear at me, not at God OR at his words. I'd rather that.
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: no they are NOT the same...jesus is NOT GOD! how hard is that for you catholics to understand...i
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: was just jesus's powers for healing, and his knowledge of his true beginnings in heaven...given back to him while on earth, so he could preach god's word to man and remember his purpose of being born on earth, to die for our sins...the "holy spitir" isn't anything more than that...
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: What the? NO WAY! Okies, about the Jesus being God, it is a mystery that we can not fully comphrehend! We are after all just mere humans, every thing God does, does not have to be understood by us. And it shouldn't be. ANY WAYS! Jesus for SURE knew when he was born of his virgin mother that he was God's son, Our Savior and Lord. He says so in the finding of the Temple when his family was returning home from the temple. His mother and father searched for him and found him in the temple talking with the elders and scribes. When his mother asked, "Son, where have you been?" he asnwered, "Woman, did you not know that I must attend to my father's work?" and THEN, he did not begin teaching until
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: he was a grown man. AND The Holy Spirit is more then 'just that'. One of the greatest mysteries of the Catholic Church is....That God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, are ONE, each diferent, each equal, but one in the same. The Blessed Trinity. I can't explain that to you, you have to believe it with your heart. Like I said, we can't begin to under stand all God does and will do....
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: he was curious, and bright, but had no knowlage of his puropse until after he was baptized...and we don't HAVE to comprehend anything that hard when it is speleed out for us in the bible...jesus saying, "I am god's SON"
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: That's because HE IS GOD's SON! I just told you about the Blessed Trinity! You ask any TRUE Catholic and they'll tell you that Jesus is my all means, God's son. It's not that way at all!! So, don't think we don't think that....yeah..
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: and the catholic church MADE IT UP! don't you understand that!!! the y tell you it "can't be understood by us mere humans" because they can't support it using the bible where it clearly states that god and jesus are two SEPERATE and UNEQUAL beings! why would the bible say that if it were not true? are you saying the bible, GODS WORD, is wrong but your church, MANS WORD, is right?
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: How do YOU know that he had no knowlage of it? Of course he did! He was compleatly human yes, but he was also compleatly divine! He knew more then we can ever say he did!
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: yes he knew more, thus why at a young age he was able to talk to the temple people like he did, but his purpose on earth was unknown to him until he was baptized...tha
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: there is NO trinity! never ever ever is it talked about in the bible...what the catholics use as their proff are scriptures taken out of context...like i said...you can make the bible say *anything* if you take it out of context...jesu
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: Heavens no RaineDrop! I would never EVER say that. I believe it alright? PLEASE DROP IT. Why can't YOU understand that this is what WE believe!? This is a CATHOLIC WIKI! It's Catholic's believe! And we are NOT giving up! We just can't answer some of the crazy thing you come up with! Not crazy, but you know! ALSO We are not SCOLARS, we can't tell you any more then we read! So please, just hold down! You believe what you beleive, and we believe in the Holy Roman Catholic church.
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: then READ the bible and see that what you believe is totally BSed by a greedy chruch! why do you believe the word of man over the word of GOD!!! the HRCC tells you "you can't understand because you are just stupid humans, so don't ask questions" and you listen!! they tell you something that conflicts with the bible's teachings and they just go "oh, this new saint of ours was chatting with god and he told him this..." and you know, the chruch banned the bible for a while, because when the printing press came out, and people had their own copies of the bible, they were noticing that what the Chrusch was teaching, was not god's word, and they told people NOT to read the bible...
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: why did they teach church in latin, a tongue common people couldn't understand? because they wanted blind faith, and money...they made up things like purgitory and hell, 2 things not talked about once in the bible, to scare the stupid people into being good and paying the church...the HRCC is lying to you...alot of what they teach is true, and from the bible...but key things are completly unsupported by god's word...and that brings me back to my questions of who's word will you follow? man's and the churches word, or god's and the bibles word?
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: What ever RaineDrop, I can't think of any thing else to tell you other then what I already said. And we don't just proclaim a Saint, it's a long process. And....I do feel stupid many a times, because I know I am no more then a meek human....but then again the church never called us stupid, also, we are God's creation, and The Church knows better that to call God's creation stupid. For we are the temples of the Holy Spirit! Any ways, I'm sorry I can't help you with your frustration with our beliefs. Out of all honesty, have you ever talked to a Priest? he might be able to help answer your questions. It's their job to defend, so they'd know it much better then any of us! ^^
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: i was calling you stupid...the church calles you "meek sinners"
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: RaineDrop, your words bring me to tears...I hate watching my faith be shot before me and I can do nothing to defend it because I know not what to say to you. My church does NOT lie, but you can think that if you want.... I follow God, Catholics all do. So, now you have your answer.
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: You were calling ME stupid? Oh...thanks. I don't think the church calls us meek sinners, if I said so, then WHOOPS. I didn't mean it, but we are sinners. All of us.
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: yes i have talked to a priest...and you know what he said? the same BS you just barfed out..."we are meek humans, not meant to understand.." and i was like "what the hell? it says so in the bible this!" and pointed stuff out, and he threw me out because he couldn't defend it either...so i ask again...why do you believe the word of man over the word of god?
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: I believe in the word of God, and the truths he has reviled to us. And once again, we Catholics do NOT beleive in Solo Scriptura.
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: so you catholics don't believe in following gods word completely, (solo scriptura) just what suits the church best...way to be...god must be dusgusted...he inspires some 20 or more men to write his teachings into a book for us to follow, to learn from, to understand him with so we may serve him fully, and you guys toss it asid...you disgust me...i follow gods word, god's teachings, and god's wishes...not those of man and the church...the church, you make it out to be all HOLY, raising it up all great like, along with people like your pope, when it is god you should be speaking so fondly of...the church is a place of learning and nothing more...and the pope is an orginizer and nothing more...
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: they are to be respected and apriciated, but not honnored and basically worshiped like you catholics do...you put too much emphisis on yourselves and not enough on GOD, the one you are SUPPOSED to be serving...it sounds like to me that you are serving the church and it's teachings, not god and his...
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: We don't worship them RaineDrop!! WE DON'T! And we do follow God, and we love him! The church is like our leader to God and to Heaven! I don't know how else to say it!
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: don't bother...you know nothing but what the chruch tells you, which is nothing because they don't think you "mere, meek, sinners and mortals" can "comprehend" what god wrote to us in the bible...sorry that you cried, it sounds to me that you need to talk to someone who can give you answers...may i suggest going to your closest Kindom Hall...they will help you understand...
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: I do need to talk to some one with answers, and that's my God and one of my very best friends who is going to become a priest. Thanks for a tough conversation RaineDrop, I must admit, your good at making my brain spin.
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: i know what i speak of, because i don't let anyone tell me anything...i ask "why" when i'm told something...i truely believe what i delieve because i looked into it on my own...i have been to jewish servises, catholic, prodistand, luthrin, muslim, anything you can name, i probably have gone to a servic...i have attended a Kindom Hall all my life, and there they teach you sooo much, using the bible...they explain the meaning of things, the context of what was said, they translate things...words have chainged meanings since the time of the bble and they explain that so you can fully understand the intended message...don'
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: circle...how do you think i learned all i know...i went out and questionsed things...i suggest you get out your phonebook, and look up you nearest Kindom Hall...they can and will help you...
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: I don't need that, but thanks any ways. I'm drained....nee
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: sorry you can't open your mind any...
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: Oh, it's open alright, just not like you wish it was. I...I can't tell you, but...I know if I wasn't Catholic, I'd be dead. And that's that. I am Catholic, always will be a Catholic. And you will always question what you think is fishy. That's fine, question all you like. I just can't help, not like I thought I could.
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: obviously...so
2005-01-14 [Mr. Werewolf]: RaineDrop, you have the right to ask us questions but you have no right to tell us what to believe. We don't tell you what to believe, and I'm sure none of us would try. You're acting like a baby. Where is the respect? You aren't accomplishing anything by attacking our faith at every opportunity possible. That is just a waste of time. Jesus did talk about Hell in the Bible! Take a look...Mark 9:45-48 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire..."
2005-01-14 [Mr. Werewolf]: Hey everybody! The Passion of the Christ won the People's Choice Award for best movie of 2004! :D
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: eww...that movie sucked...i can't really name an alaround awesome movie that came out this year, but i certainly can name a few dozen better than that crap
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: and i have every right to ask you to question things...that is what you SHOULD do...no matter what religion you are...you don't learn ANYTHING unless you ask questions and GET ANSWERS...i ask you perfectly reasonable questions from the bible, and you are unable to defend them using what your church has TOLD you...that sounds like a problem doesn't it?
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: Oh yeah! No way [Mr. Werewolf]!!! I hope it wins, I cried at every scene. It was so beautiful. Mel Gibson did a GREAT job! I hear he wants to do one on the brother in Macabees 2, or something like that! (spelling??) *hugs Mel* he was on EWTN, and I love the interview! And then they went behind the scenes...ohh it was great! Jim C. doesn't look like himself AT ALL! Great makeup job.
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: I remember the interview he had, "My initials are JC and I am 33!" I thought it was funny....any ways, the last Supper Scene was awesome. I loved it. Kinda how I always pictured the Eucharist in the Mass.....so beautiful....*
2005-01-14 [Mr. Werewolf]: Yes, and he did a spectacular job acting. Mel Gibson did a great job, did you know he spent several million dollars of his own money to finance the project? That's dedication!
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: Yeah! that's what I call a true Catholic....an
2005-01-14 [Dint]: The movie is a great prayer tool as well. My mom says that we're going to watch that movie EVERY Lent from now on! :D
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: And they had Mass EVERY day! I would love that...I need a car!
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: he did it all out of his pocket because no one would finace it...he did it all on his own, with his own money, meaning all the money it grosed he gets to keep it all...that way he was smart...but it doesn't change the fact that the movie sucked
2005-01-14 [Dint]: To each his own RaineDrop. I thought it was fantastic.
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: I am not going to get into a fight, but can I ask WHY you think it sucked? It was all from Scripture, and John! I love John, specially, John 6! *sigh*..
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: i didn't like how over dramatic they made it...i found it boring, and overly emotional...it was crap...i wish i never had seen it and just believed everyone else that it was good...i thought it made a mockery of what jesus did...i should have saved my money and seen Catwoman instead...at least that bad movie i could sit through
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: Huh, ohh well. I thought it rocked my socks off. OH! And the part with Jesus and his Mother Mary, so nice! And with Mary of Magadala! Oh! OH! AND When Mary puts her ear to the floor and Jesus looks up. It shows how close the two really were. John 6!!
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: *yawns* i fell asleep, then woke intime to laugh...
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: first off, it WAS an exceedingly emotional AND dramatic time! i mean, come ON! Jesus was sentenced to DEATH... If anything, it shows that Jesus laid down his own life WILLINGLY to redeem us from our sins. Don't you agree [Dint]?
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: i laughed...the whole movie was a joke...my friends and i rented it just to mock it out...good times...what jesus gave for us should never have been made into a movie...the fact that there are people willing to make profit off such a thing disgusts me more than the actor that was willing to pretend to be jesus...might as well have watched Jeasus Christ SuperStar"...
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: Well, any ways. I thought Jim C. did a great job! He has GOOD movies man....no gross stuff, nice and clean....*hugs Jim*
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: never seen him in anything else...and i hate "clean" movies...they are boring....give me a action flick or psych-out horror anyday
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: Oh well, he was in, The Count of Monte Cristo, (spelling?) Frequency, Angel Eyes, ermm....I can't think of the other 3...sorry! But he's a good actor.
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: i saw the count of monte cristo a while ago...another sucky movie
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: Oh the book was good too, to be sure! Men with swords, fighting for loved ones, oh yes, nice nice!
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: the book was decent...but how it always is...the movie based from the book sucked...but i still didn't like the book that much, or really at all...
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: But, then again EVERY movie is like that, the ones based off of books at least. It just happens that way!
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: and i said that in my comment teri...thanks for repeating my point...
2005-01-14 [Dint]: I thought the Count of Monte Cristo was a good movie too [Tesa]. I for one like those “clean movies”. I like action movies as well, but not things that contain smut. Now I feel like watching Pride and Prejudice. XD
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: sorry, but your welcome any ways.
2005-01-14 [Tesa]: OH! I love that movie [Dint]! Or, Sense and Sensablility..
2005-01-14 [RabidSphinx]: i was being sarcastic teri...learn to understand it....and clean movies are more often then not, annoying...i like movies like "the ring" and "the butterfly effect" and "silance of the lambs" and "the crow"...movies like those i can watch forever and never grow tired of..
2005-01-14 [Dint]: I hear The Ring was based off of a manga. I'd like to see that movie one of these days. Wish I had some cash to rent stuff, but my purse is lacking of it.
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